John Mackey: We Must Change How We Think About Capitalism

The Whole Foods' cofounder and Love.Life CEO goes deep on the failures, successes, and psychedelics he encountered while reshaping how Americans think about food, fitness, and free enterprise.

When I started compiling links for today’s Reason Interview podcast release, I came to realize that I’ve probably interviewed John Mackey more than any other person over the past 15 years or so that I’ve been doing video and audio interviews. Seriously, we’ve sat down at least seven times since 2009. The reason isn’t a mystery: I think John is one of the most compelling figures on the social, political, and economic scenes. I can’t remember when we first actually met but I fondly recall the epic debate I set up with him, Milton Friedman, and Cypress Semiconductor CEO T.J. Rodgers for the October 2005 issue of Reason. In it, John unveils what he would come to call “Conscious Capitalism,” or an evolution of how to think about business and purpose that is attractive, engaging, and persuasive. A hardcore capitalist, a committed vegan, and a deeply spiritual man, John is constantly exploding the boxes we’ve created to make sense of the world.

If you’re old enough, try to remember what grocery shopping was like before Whole Foods disrupted the scene. It was pretty grim, at least where I grew up in New Jersey, despite being adjacent to a lot of working farms with tons of fresh vegetables. Uninspired displays of stuff, compounded with buzzy fluorescent lights, gross linoleum tiles, and butcher and fish sections that never quite seemed clean. Over the last couple of decades of the 20th century, Whole Foods helped to radically change that—and not just for hippies and natural food freaks. As the chain grew, it forced sluggish and ancient-seeming chains like Kroger and A&P to either up their game or pack it in.

Born in 1953, John is a Boomer’s Boomer—and I mean that in the best sense of the term. He personifies the best qualities of a generation that is taking a lot of shit right now, mostly for refusing to die already and turn over the keys to younger people. There’s some truth to the ‘OK, Boomer’ critiques (born in 1963, I myself am a Boomer). But Boomers helped forge a more individualistic America, one that we all benefit from. Sure, they (we?) had advantages our parents, who grew up during the Depression and fought in World War II and Korea, didn’t have. And many of us went out of our ways to anger and antagonize our parents and their traditions before ultimately embracing many of them, albeit altered and updated. But by refusing to simply go with the paths mapped out for us, Boomers helped revolutionize what life and work could mean. In the mid-1960s, as the earliest Boomers were graduating high school, sociologists were anticipating a conformist generation that would work pliantly for giant corporations and follow orders. It didn’t quite work out that way, thank god.

As a society, more of us are higher up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (don’t call it a pyramid!) than we were 50 years ago. That’s a good thing, even if it means we’ve massively increased the quantity of existential angst, which might just be the ultimate luxury belief. Getting to choose what to do with your life is a pretty good problem.

In his new memoir, The Whole Story, John reflects frankly about the failures, successes, and psychedelics he encountered while reshaping how Americans think about food, fitness, and free enterprise. This is a fun discussion but also a serious one. John has long been worried that our liberal order (predicated upon ‘free minds and free markets,’ so to speak) can easily slide into lassitude, grievance, and entitlement, especially if we forget that the production of value and meaning is hard work. We need guides and mentors who don’t tell us what to do but at least give us direction and a framework for how to get on with our lives. John’s book—and his life—help provide that.

We also talk about Love.Life, his new venture since leaving Whole Foods a couple of years ago, which is all about integrating health, fitness, and living intentionally. If John is an archetypal Boomer entrepreneur who changed how we think about groceries, he’s also leading the way on how we might think about ageing and community. He’s in his 70s now, but you wouldn’t know that to look at or talk with him.

Click on the image below to watch the video; I’ve also included chapter headings. And I’ve included links to Spotify and Apple podcast versions.

Let me know what you think.

00:00- Introduction

00:48- The Whole Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and Capitalism

03:45- Capitalism disrupts the status quo

07:57- Whole Foods’ bumpy start

15:02- How to foster rich environments for capitalism & innovation

19:00- Why socialism ALWAYS fails

21:05- John Mackey’s upbringing

26:38- Where is the next generation heading?

29:53- The Capitalism scapegoat

32:36- Ad: BankOnYourself.com

34:27- LSD and other psychedelics

38:15- Applying “Expand into love, don’t contract into fear” to business

40:41- Conscious capitalism as a management philosophy

45:45- Unionization at Whole Foods

51:11- The pros & cons of selling Whole Foods to Amazon

59:48- Mackey’s new venture: Love.Life

01:05:19- John Mackey’s secrets to health

01:09:38- Capitalism: an infinite game