The guest on the new Reason Interview is Columbia University linguist and New York Times columnist
.In 2021, he published Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America, which argued that politically correct "antiracism" was not only a new religion but a dangerous form of illiberalism that quashed free expression, individual liberty, and social progress. Flash forward to now: Ibram X. Kendi and Robin DiAngelo, two major figures in the ‘antiracism’ movement, are openly challenged and ridiculed; Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has removed her pronouns from her X bio; and governments, universities, and corporations are suspending or reducing all sorts of DEI initiatives. Donald Trump didn’t just beat Kamala Harris in 2024 election, he gained ground among virtually all racial and ethnic minorities.
McWhorter talks with me about how far we've come since 2021—and whether we are in fact entering a new era of open debate and cultural possibilities. We also discuss the apparent end of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs, John's own experience with affirmative action over his decades in academia, and his forthcoming book Pronoun Trouble: The Story of Us in Seven Little Words, which comes out in April.
Click above to start watching or listening here. Scroll down for links to Apple, Spotify, YouTube and SoundCloud versions. This conversation was recorded live in New York City.
0:00—Introduction
1:10—The "woke racism" recession
7:01—The arts and academia are still "woke"
11:30—Donald Trump's attacks on DEI
16:40—Individuals vs. groups
18:24—The emotional cost of affirmative action
20:05—The immaturity of the "woke right"
21:46—McWhorter's political identity
27:20—Attitude shifts about race and class
32:27—TV got better, movies got worse
36:10—McWhorter's new book, Pronoun Trouble
41:51—They is a pretty good gender-neutral pronoun
44:57—Mixing high and low culture
Previous appearances:
"John McWhorter: How To Defeat 'Woke Racism,'" November 17, 2021
"John McWhorter: 'The Idea That America Is All About Despising Black People? That's Fantasy,'" May 5, 2021
"John McWhorter: America Has Never Been Less Racist," April 11, 2019
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